The Roon Ba

[Fast Midfielder]

This will make Portugal the odd nation which have/had colonies. All its other counterparts admitted colonies to have something as a "NT". France regularly played with its B-team against Alger, Tunis, Oran and Morocco at the time these nations were French colonies. Netherlands played several times international matches against its colonies Dutch East Indies, Suriname, Netherlands Antilles (Curaçao) and Aruba. Dutch FA even recognizes matches against Suriname (1960) and Netherlands Antilles (1958, 1960 and 1962) as official A-internationals. Matches against Dutch East Indies (1938), Dutch Antilles (1952) and Suriname (twice in 1954) should be regarded so at least. Also UK, Denmark and USA allowed its colonies to play full A international matches and I think Belgium allowed Congo-Léopoldsville to play international matches.

[Fast Midfielder]

[yaniv]

Then we can't be decisive.

[Fast Midfielder]

In such a case I think the lable is Istabul XI, the contents are Turkey NT so the match should be de facto full A international (if the opponent's side is de facto full A NT as well).

[yaniv]

I updated the list of Israel unofficial games and added some more games:
http://www.rsssf.com/tablesi/isra-intres-class.html
http://www.rsssf.com/tablesi/isra-others-intres.html

[Fast Midfielder]

This is a great update. I would like to have some comments on following matches on your site. This topic already made clear that in some cases NT's are labelled as City XI. In most cases a few days before or after both sides met in a full A international. In other sports it is also common to regard following matches as full A international match. In futsal it is even very common if two nations play two friendlies within two days, both matches are regarded as international matches between countries. The same goes for field hockey, which is a populair sport in Netherlands. Dutch field hockey NT play every year a best of three, four, five or even six against Australia, Germany, Spain and Pakistan (the other leading nations in that sport) and all these matches are regarded as official between two countries.

07/04/1934 Egypt Home 2-2 [1]
23/07/1949 Cyprus Home 3-3 [2]
27/07/1949 Cyprus Home 2-2 [2]
20/09/1949 Yugoslavia Home 1-4 [3]
22/09/1949 Yugoslavia Home 0-4 [4]
30/10/1950 Turkey Away 1-2 [5]
06/12/1950 Turkey Home 0-2 [5]

Remarks:
[1] Officially played by Tel-Aviv XI and Cairo XI, but actually played by the national teams.
[2] Officially played by Tel-Aviv XI and Nicosia XI, but actually played by the national teams.
[3] Officially played by Tel-Aviv XI and Belgrade XI. Tel-Aviv XI was actually Israel (using many reserve players). Belgrade XI was actually Yugoslavia.
[4] Officially played by Tel-Aviv & Haifa XI and Belgrade XI. Tel-Aviv XI was actually Israel (using many reserve players). Belgrade XI was actually Yugoslavia.
[5] Officially played by Tel-Aviv XI and Istanbul XI, but actually played by the national teams.

[yaniv]

What kind of comments would you like to have on those matches?

[Fast Midfielder]

My comments may have been lost somewhere into the message. However I wanted to say that matches played between two A national teams always should be regarded as full A (read A-A) international match. It is ridiculous indeed "suddenly" to recognize a second match within a few days between the same sides as "Intercity match". Indeed, it may happen both sides won't play again with the very same players if they met within a few days, but that seems logical to me. Meanwhile players can get injured or being replaced after a poor performance. As I also pointed, in other sports it is common regarding the other matches as well as matches between countries. About the matches Israel played as Tel Aviv (& Haifa) XI I would like to know its line ups as well its opponent's line ups. On first sight I would say all matches (except the 1949 ones against Yugoslavia) should count as full A. For the 1949 matches I would like to know how many reserve players Israel fielded.

Concerning the Turkish sides that played official matches against Israel prior to the so called "Istanbul XI" - "Tel Aviv XI" matches on 30-10-1950 and 06-12-1950 I find out:
28-10-1950 Israel 5-1 Turkey Turkish team fielded 10 Istanbul based players.
03-12-1950 Turkey 3-2 Israel Turkish team fielded 10 Istanbul based players.
A similar kind of such a case happened with the so called "Istanbul XI" matches played against "Athens XI" on 01-12-1948. Three days before following match was played:
28-11-1948 Turkey 2-1 Greece Turkish team fielded 11 Istanbul based players.
On 02-03-1952 a so called "Athens XI" - "Istanbul XI" was played. Two days after Greece - Turkey (Turkey labelled its team as U-21, but seven of the Turkish players came in action in the matches Turkey played in the 1951-1952 season. These seven were all Istanbul based players).

[yaniv]

Israel got its independence in May 1948. The independence war ended only in January 1949. So for the 1949 games Israel didn't have a "stable" national team and every combination of players can be regarded as the national team.

7/4/1934 (as Palestine) - 7 players that opened on 6/4/1934 opened in this game:
Willi Berger - Avraham Beit-Halevi, David Weinberg - Zalman Friedmann "Dzampa", Gdalyahu Fuchs, Yaacov Riklin - Menahem Harash, Amnon Harlap, Yaacov Zalivansky, Shlomo Poliakov, Avraham Nudelmann

23/7/1949 - 6 players that opened on 30/7/1949 opened in this game:
Yaacov Hodorov - Avraham Felman "Buchka", Edmond Schmilovich, Eli Fuchs, Itzhak Schneor - Ernst Weinberger "Vermesh" (Yehoshua Glazer, 35), Israel Weiss, Itzhak Chechik - Zvi Studinski, Dani Yalovski, Yosef Mirmovich

27/7/1949 - 6 players that opened on 30/7/1949 opened in this game:
Avraham Bendori - Itzhak Schneor, Eli Fuchs, Edmond Schmilovich, Israel Weiss - Itzhak Chechik, Itzhak Gambash, Ernst Weinberger "Vermesh" - Yosef Mirmovich, Eliezer Spiegel, Moshe Litvak

20/9/1949 - 2 players that opened on 18/9/1949 opened in this game:
Yaacov Hodorov - Menahem Zimet, Dola, Avraham Turika, Israel Weiss - Itzhak Chechik, David Schweitzer, Dani Yalovski - Yehoshua Glazer, Haim Glazer, Moshe Litvak
(5 of the other 9 players were capped before the game)

22/9/1949 - 7 players that opened on 18/9/1949 opened in this game:
Yaacov Hodorov - Avraham Felman "Buchka", Itzhak Gambash (Avraham Turika, 46), Yaacov Gambash, Greenbaum (Israel Weiss, 15) - Rakuchi (Itzhak Chechik, 46), Eli Fuchs, Zvi Studinski - Aharon, Yehoshua Glazer, Moshe Hendler (Ernst Weinberger "Vermesh", 46)
(Greenbaum, Rakuchi, Aharon and Hendler have never played in any other official or unofficial game)

30/10/1950 - 10 players that opened on 28/10/1950 opened in this game:
Yaacov Hodorov - Itzhak Schneor, Itzhak Gambash (Shimon Zimmermann, 46), Eli Fuchs, Israel Weiss - Edmond Schmilovich, Moshe Melamed (Zvi Studinski, 46), Itzhak Chechik - Yosef Mirmovich, Yehoshua Glazer, Yona Fuchs

6/12/1950 - 10 players that opened on 3/12/1950 opened in this game:
Yaacov Hodorov - Itzhak Schneor, Avraham Turika, Moshe Melamed, Israel Weiss - Yosef Mirmovich, Eli Fuchs, Itzhak Chechik - Itzhak Gambash, Yehoshua Glazer, Zvi Studinski

[yaniv]

Opponents line-ups:

7/4/1934: unknown

23/7/1949, 27/7/1949: unknown

20/9/1949: Ljubomir Lovrić, Miroslav Brozović, Branislav Stanković, Zlatko Čajkovski, Miodrag Jovanović, Predrag �ajić, Božidar Sen�ar, Stjepan Bobek, Marko Valok, Milutin Pajević, Kiril Simonovski

22/9/1949: Ljubomir Lovrić, Miroslav Brozović, Lajco Jakovetić (Zlatko Čajkovski, 46), Predrag �ajić, Ratko Čolić, Stjepan Bobek, Ondrusek?, Milutin Pajević, Kiril Simonovski, Marko Valok, Željko Čajkovski

30/10/1950: Abdul-Kader?, Müjdat Yetkiner, Muammer Tokgöz, Kamil Ekin, Bülent Eken, Hüseyin Saygun, Suahadin?, Galip Haktanir, Reha Eken, Rafik?, Halit Deringör

6/12/1950: unknown

[Fast Midfielder]

Opponents line-ups:

20/9/1949: Ljubomir Lovrić, Miroslav Brozović, Branislav Stanković, Zlatko Čajkovski, Miodrag Jovanović, Predrag �ajić, Božidar Sen�ar, Stjepan Bobek, Marko Valok, Milutin Pajević, Kiril Simonovski
22/9/1949: Ljubomir Lovrić, Miroslav Brozović, Lajco Jakovetić (Zlatko Čajkovski, 46), Predrag �ajić, Ratko Čolić, Stjepan Bobek, Ondrusek?, Milutin Pajević, Kiril Simonovski, Marko Valok, Željko Čajkovski
The ones in orange (only those from starting line up) played in the 18-09-1949 Israel 2-5 Yugoslavia match. Jakovetic played all his 4 matches for Yugoslavia in between 21-08-1949 and 13-11-1949, so he was a regular international player at that moment.

30/10/1950: Abdul-Kader?, Müjdat Yetkiner, Muammer Tokgöz, Kamil Ekin, Bülent Eken, Hüseyin Saygun, Suahadin?, Galip Haktanir, Reha Eken, Rafik?, Halit Deringör
The names in blue appears in the 28-10-1950 Israel 5-1 Turkey line up. Could Suahadin have been Selahattin?

[yaniv]

Could be, but I can't be sure.

[yaniv]

[Fast Midfielder]

Samson Voetbaljaarboek 83-84 mentions about three Dutch Olympic team matches that have been labelled as Dutch amateur NT matches. This team cannot have been an amateur NT as most of its players were from professional clubs. Stanley Menzo of Ajax i.e. defended Dutch Olympic NT goal in all these three matches. This makes clear label and contents sometimes does not match as a result of some freaky decision. It's another example we should not always take the label too serious.
20-10-1982 Norway A 1-0 Netherlands Olympic. This Dutch team played as Olympic XI but KNVB registered match as 121st international match of Dutch amateur NT.
16-11-1982 Netherlands Olympic 0-0 Germany Olympic. This Dutch team played as Olympic XI but KNVB registered match as 122nd international match of Dutch amateur NT.
22-12-1982 Portugal U 21 0-3 Netherlands Olympic. This Dutch team played as Olympic XI but KNVB registered match as 123rd international match of Dutch amateur NT.
In other words: the contents are Dutch Olympic NT, the lables are Dutch amateur NT.

[Fast Midfielder]

How should we label following match? (see topic http://roonba.20.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?p=11658#11658 Even though Czechoslovakia team was not an A national team at all, we cannot consider this team as amateur National team. One of its players, the famous Jaroslav Burgr, was professional at the time as you can see at http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaroslav_Burgr Unfortunately there's no English translation for this article.

Here some info about Jaroslav Burgr from Czechia's FA site: http://www.soccer.cz/c/nat/players/viewstat.asp?name=BurgrJaroslav